Ellen Kempner is the vocalist, guitarist, and songwriter for the Boston and New York-based indie rock trio Palehound. Their latest record, Eye on the Bat, is out now Polyvinyl.
El Kempner fronts the New-York-via-Boston indie rock band Palehound; Nick Llobet fronts the also-New York-based indie rock band Youbet. Last month, Youbet put out their first record with Hardly Art, Way To Be, so to celebrate, the friends hopped on a Zoom call to catch up about it.
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music
El Kempner: How are you feeling? You just put out an album.
Nick Llobet: I feel pretty good. It’s been a long time in the making because of the pandemic, and various other things. But it feels amazing that it’s done and people actually like it. It’s just so cool to write all these weird songs and see that people actually connect to it. It’s really exciting.
El: It’s exciting for me too, because you sent me this album, like, a year ago. I feel like this album was coveted for a while — it was this thing where people would be like, “Do you have the link?” And you were being really generous with it to the point that your manager, I think, was eventually like, “Please, no!” But you and Micah [Prussack] were sending that shit around in this way that I just loved, and was so punk.
Nick: I remember when we got the the mixes, I literally went into my DMs and just started rifling it off.
El: And then it spread! And then people were like, “Do you have the link? Have you heard the new Youbet album?” It was this thing that people were just so obsessed with, and [had] almost this cult lore. So for it to finally be out is really funny, because I feel like I know it so intimately. But it did hit different to hear it knowing that it’s out and seeing the videos — which are awesome, by the way. The video that you just put out is amazing. I love Brittany [Reeber] and Adam [Kolodny] [the video’s directors]. They did such a good job.
Nick: I saw the video that you did with Brittany, and that’s kind of one of the reasons why I was like, “Oh, yeah, this will be a great person to ask.” And we didn’t expect Brittany to say yes, because we didn’t have a huge budget for it, but she said yes and it came out amazing.
El: It came out amazing. It’s one of my favorite videos that I’ve seen recently because it is just y’all playing. And that’s the best part of you guys: Y’all are such a fucking good band and I love watching you play. I mean, for people who don’t know, I go to every show of yours that I possibly can, because I just think y’all are one of the most inspiring live bands I’ve ever heard. And I think one of the reasons that the record is so good is that you really capture that live feel. I know you didn’t record it live, right? It’s like Overdubs City.
Nick: [Nods.]
El: But you guys really tapped into that feeling that you get live. So that is another reason why I love that record so much.
Nick: Yeah. Your record is amazing, too.
El: Thank you. I just like the guitar playing on your record, obviously. I mean, it’s so funny to talk to you about this formally, because I feel like I’ve been talking your ear off about these songs for so long that I’m going to be inevitably repeating myself. But the guitar playing is just out of control. Every time I recommend this record to someone — which is at least once a day — I’m just like, “Nick is my favorite guitar player. They’re just unreal.” And the combination of you and Adam [Brisbin] — I actually did a session with Adam earlier today, on someone else’s song, and I was reminded of how insanely good at guitar he is. And hearing him jamming along with this other person’s song, I was hearing some of those tones, and I just think the two of you on that record are just such a great combination.
Nick: Yeah. And it’s funny because when he’s not playing and I’m doing leads, I’m trying to copy what he’s doing.
El: I feel like you guys play off each other so well, where I can tell that you’re inspired by him, but not in this way, where it feels like, Oh, Nick is just trying to do what Adam’s doing. You have your own influences that Adam doesn’t have, which is largely the flamenco influence — which is one of the things that makes y’all such a unique indie rock band.
Nick: That’s so cool. Thank you.
El: Is that a conscious choice to use flamenco parts and actions in your playing, or do you just feel like it’s naturally integrated? I know you work your ass off to play that stuff and you practice so much, but do you feel like you had to push to integrate those parts? Because it’s definitely way more present than in your last record.
Nick: I think it came naturally. I mean, none of the songs have a flamenco rhythm, because the flamenco rhythms are insane and, like, in 12/8 and doing all this stuff that accents on different beats. But what I did do is I took a lot of the chords from flamenco — there’s very distinct chords, especially from the style called Bulerías, which is a type of rhythm. So basically, the chords that are used in Bulerías I took and use often. In the song “Peel,” that song is the one where I really went to town using all the flamenco chords I’ve ever found and tried to put them in one song. It’s just a style of music that’s got a darkness to it. It’s got obviously a lot of light and balance in that way. But it also has a lot of this… the chord I’m thinking of is that major chord, but with a flat 9. It’s just so dark and so sinister, and I use that chord in almost every song at some point. I learned it from flamenco.
El: When you’re writing guitar parts, do you put a sinister chord in when you have a sinister lyric? Or do you put a sinister lyric in when you have a sinister chord? Do you link the music and the lyrics emotionally that way, consciously?
Nick: Actually, I’ve always wanted to be that connected, but usually it’s just whatever comes lyrically comes. I’m sure the underlying chords are influencing the words to some degree, but… I think that would be a really cool prompt for another song, to see if I can interconnect the music with the lyrics a little better. But no, I wouldn’t say it’s a conscious choice or something. But I’d like it to be. That’s a really cool vibe.
El: Yeah, that is a cool vibe. I think it’s also cool, though, when those chords don’t necessarily match the lyrics. Even if you’re not intentionally doing that, it is just inevitably gonna have an emotional effect. And I think that is one of the reasons I feel so emotional about your music — a lot of songs, the lyrics are telling you what to feel and there’s basic chords underneath that are kind of emphasizing that. But I feel like Youbet is a project that really centers the emotion on the playing, and then the lyrics just enlighten me further into that emotion, which I think is unique. I’ve always wanted to ask you about that, about your lyrics, because we really don’t shut up about guitar when we hang out — and I love that. I’m always asking you questions, you’ve taught me some shit that has been invaluable to me, and I’m so grateful for. Like triads—
Nick: I remember that.
El: And fretboard tapping. You taught me that, and I practiced it, like, religiously. And now it’s my fucking shit.
Nick: That’s my go-to with every student who wants to get the fretboard down. I always show them the triads across the neck, because that’s what I did over the pandemic. I just went to town with that, and it opened up all these avenues for me to express myself. I still am learning, obviously, but I find that that’s the way to learn the language of the fretboard.
El: Absolutely. I mean, you taught me just in one day. You came over, and I feel like [it was] not even so much information, but it totally reframed that whole instrument for me that I’d been playing my whole life. [Laughs.] So that’s really cool, and I’m really grateful for that.
I haven’t seen you in so long — I have so many questions. How was tour?
Nick: Tour was good. We did two separate tours: one opening for Mary Timony, and then another supporting Coco. The tours were great. I mean, it’s our first time bringing this music outside of New York. We have a pretty good following here in the city, so when we go out and play for a completely new audience for the first time, it’s wild. Winning over people that you never met is really exciting to me.
El: You like that. You like winning over people, and that challenge when you get on stage.
Nick: Yeah, yeah. I mean, to some degree there is an element of uncertainty and insecurity. And, you know, as we talked about, I make kind of weird music so it’s hard — they’re not expected songs. Sometimes I feel like people might not want to hear something like that. But I think the overwhelming response for us was positive. People really liked it, and to this day, people from the tour are keeping in touch and whatnot. It was just a cool experience. I’ve toured in other bands playing guitar, but I’ve never toured my own music until this last year, so it’s surreal and fun, and it’s hard work.
How was your tour? You’ve been on, like, a never ending tour.
El: Yeah, I mean, I’ve been touring for 10 years and it’s still been intense, you know? So I was so curious, because I knew that was your first tour, and I just remember that feeling and that anxiety and everything being new. I’m almost envious of you having that experience. My tour was really great. I’m just fucking wiped. [Laughs.] I’m really happy to be home and teaching for a while. That’s definitely healthy for me at this point. Touring is hard. After this experience of doing these tours, does the idea of living a touring life — like, when you see me doing three months in a row at this point — do you want that?
Nick: I think so, yeah. I mean, I’d like to give it a real shot. If someone will have this music for three months on the road — if we have the opportunity to do something like that — I think I need to take it at this point. Because I’ve been working my whole life on building this music and this vision, and I’d love to build a wider audience and play for more people. And traveling is something I don’t normally do; I’m a very homebody person, I stay in my room all day. I wasn’t raised traveling, when I was a kid we never really went anywhere. It’s ingrained in my soul to stay in my room and not do anything crazy. Just play music and stay in my comfort zone. So touring is like my way out of this life. And I’ve always said how crazy it is that I’ve chosen this life, because I never would travel or do anything like this, but this is now my life. I’m traveling, I’m seeing things that I wouldn’t normally see. Driving makes me very nervous, and now I’m driving more.
El: Because you live in the city — you probably hadn’t driven in a long time before this.
Nick: Yeah, before touring, I would go years and years without even stepping into the driver’s seat.
El: But it is, like, completely essential. Especially for a three piece band — everyone’s gotta pull their own weight.
Nick: Yeah, totally. Micah is getting her license in a couple months, so…
El: Oh, I didn’t realize she didn’t have one. So it was just you and Jojo [Quinn] on the last tour? That’s a lot of driving.
Nick: Mostly Jojo, because it was Jojo’s personal car — rest in peace. [The band got into a car accident on their tour with Coco.]
El: Oh, I know. I was going to ask you about that. When I saw that happen to y’all, I was like, That’s such bad luck, first tour. But also, it’s good that you got it out of the way, you know?
Nick: Yeah, it really put a damper on all of our moods for a few weeks. It’s funny, because we did that music video for “Peel” the day after we got back from that tour. That video was supposed to be funny — we were all supposed to be goofy and laughing and being ridiculous and letting our personalities show. And we were all so burnt from that frickin’ experience of having the crash, and the logistical nightmare that it was, that when we got back to town and we did that video, we were all super fucking serious and on edge with each other.
El: But it also kind of ended up being funny, though! Brittany is such a talented director, she’ll bring humor into something even if you’re not there giving it. So I actually think that y’all’s attitudes being like that, combined with the kind of quirkiness of y’all switching places and being up with the camera, made it funnier than if you guys were just being really goofy. I think it just was a really great portrait of you guys where there’s fun and silliness, but also a lot of serious shit going on. I love that video so much.
But I’m so glad that you like touring, because definitely people are going to want to take you on tour.
Nick: Hell yeah.
El: I tried! But you had some other shows conflicting. Someday we will. I just think everyone should hear your band. It’s so cool to think about someone hearing your band for the first time — and to hear it live, because the first time I ever heard your band was recorded. I didn’t see you guys live for, like, years after I heard Compare and Despair, because I heard that literally right at the beginning of the pandemic. I was obsessed with it. And you were so mysterious to me at that point — I was like, Who the fuck is this person?
Nick: I’ve been looking up to you for so long, your music and you as a guitarist. I just think it’s so crazy that we became friends. It’s still surreal to me. I remember the first time you came to see us, at Baby’s All Right. I was so nervous. Every time someone that I want to impress is in the audience, the whole show…
El: That’s the worst. That’s so nerve-wracking.
Nick: Every moment, I’m just thinking, Do they think I’m singing out of tune here? Do they think I’m playing the right chord? Are they enjoying themselves? And every time I looked up, you were having a great time.
El: Of course I was!
Nick: I close my eyes when I play because I’m so extremely anxious about performing usually. And then when I open them and see people having a good time, I close them again and I’m like, OK, this is going well.
El: I also close my eyes when I play. But also, I’ve recently thought about this: I could be playing for a ton of people, it could be a huge crowd, and I won’t be nervous. But if it’s a crowd of like, 10 people and there’s even one person there whose opinion I’m really nervous about, that’ll be so much more nerve-wracking. That’s so much harder to play for someone who you look up to or who you want to impress.
Nick: It is so true. And, I mean, what a good exercise.
El: It is a good exercise. So it’s cool that you got to play to audiences of strangers, and just be able to kind of relax into the set and enjoy that feeling. Because I think for some people it’s the opposite, where they’re like, “I’m really comfortable playing in front of people I know or people I respect, but I can’t get on a stage in front of all these strangers.”
Nick: Yeah.
El: Mary Timony is such a hero. Had you been a fan of hers before this tour?
Nick: I had checked out Helium over the years. Now I’m a big fan after we have gotten to play together, and got to know each other and spent some intimate time behind the scenes and whatnot. But I mean, she has such a legacy and such a great approach to songwriting. She’s also a music teacher, obviously. I just look up to her a lot. I think that her and the band that she played with were so inspiring and such great people. I very much hold that experience close to my heart, because that was my first real supporting tour with anyone, and doing it with Mary Timony was surreal as hell. Because obviously I know that Mary Timony is a guitar hero and so many people are influenced by her. I saw that both of you were in the Rolling Stone list of best guitarists.
El: She was a really big inspiration to me, so when I saw you guys were on that tour, I was like, Fuck yes, that is a such a sick bill. And I was so pissed that I was on tour the whole time you guys were. Well, it was funny because I was also seeing posters for y’all’s shows at some of the venues that we were playing, so I was just like, Man, that’s gonna be so good. I was picturing you guys playing on the stages that we were in and I was like, That’s so fucking cool.
Nick: She would watch our set and it was crazy — I would get that feeling every night like, Oh, my god, Mary Timony is standing right in front of me and I have to not mess up anything. She was so supportive and treated us with such gratitude and kindness. I really hope that we get to reconnect with Mary. She’s the best.
El: I mean, someone like her who has been doing it for so long — the fact that she still watches her opening bands every night of tour says all I need to know. I’ve never met her, but that affirms shit that I felt about her. I knew she was a real one, and that’s proof.
Nick: It means so much. I just feel like she’s been touring and doing all this amazing stuff, has released so much music and is such an inspiration. And she’s a teacher, which I look up to because I’ve been teaching for a living for the last half of my life.
El: She was Snail Mail, Lindsay Jordan’s teacher. To take lessons from Mary Timony at that age would have been my dream come true. So, I know you’ve been writing more songs, because you play new songs at shows, right? Haven’t you been playing some unrecorded stuff?
Nick: Yeah, we’re working on new stuff. I’m always writing songs.
El: You’re always writing.
Nick: Keeps my mental health afloat. I have to write; it helps me move forward in life. So yeah, I got some new stuff up my sleeve, hopefully.
El: Awesome. That’s great. I obviously am extremely excited to hear whatever happens next.
Nick: Have you been writing any new stuff?
El: Yes and no. Not recently. It’s hard with touring so much, because I just get so tired, and so focused on the current music that it’s really hard for me to do that. Touring is inspiring and emotional, but for me personally, there’s not a lot there that then inspires me to take the one free hour I have a day to write. You know? I’m usually just like, Oh my god, let me scroll on my phone. Which is my downfall. I wish that I was someone who could just write, write, write, write, but I’m not.
Nick: Yeah, definitely. It’s nice to have the downtime now where you can just be home.
El: That’s going to be different. I’m going to start writing a lot more now.
Nick: Yeah. We should we should do some creative stuff together now that we’re both back again.
El: I would love to. One of my favorite days living in New York was when we all jammed in the park. That was something I think about all the time. The next nice day that we have that we’re both free, we should do that.
Nick: I would love it.
