Weishan Liu and Lunar Noon Help Each Other Out

Michelle Zheng is the San Francisco-based artist behind the project Lunar Noon; Weishan Liu is a globally recognized master guzheng player, composer, and educator, also based in the Bay Area. Weishan is featured on Lunar Noon’s new record — A circle’s round, out today — so to celebrate, the two got together to catch up about how they made the collaboration happen, and more.
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music

Michelle Zheng: Hi, Weishan. Thanks for having me at your house.

Weishan Liu: Welcome.

Michelle: We already were talking about some of these things before, so I guess we can just keep going. But for the interview, do you want to tell everyone a little bit about you?

Weishan: Talk about yourself first.

Michelle: OK, sure. Well, maybe I’ll talk about how we met.

Weishan: How did you find me? 

Michelle: So, how do I know Weishan? Well, we’re here today at her place in the Bay area. We both live in the Bay area. I have been working for the last three years on an album that’s coming out in November. And funnily, something I do that happens quite often is I’ll write a demo of a song, and then I’ll write for instruments that I don’t know how to play. One of them was the guzheng. I’ve always really liked this instrument, and there’s kind of the computer, MIDI version of it, but I wrote a few parts for it that sounded so interesting, and I thought the songs that I was writing could use a real one. So then I decided to just Google, “San Francisco Guzheng.” And then I found the San Francisco Guzheng Music Society, which you founded.

Weishan: Yeah. After I worked with George Winston, I didn’t really collaborate with any musicians. But when you called — you made a few calls, and I didn’t answer you. [Laughs.] But one of my friends pushed me to. “You better call this girl, she called so many times!” So when I met you, I just said, “This girl is so cute.” 

Michelle: [Laughs.] Cute?!

Weishan: When I listened to your music, your voice was very sweet, very natural. I liked your music right away. So, “OK, I’ll do it for you.” That’s the beginning.

Michelle: I’m glad you thought I was cute. From my perspective, I felt like I was walking into a movie or something, and it was the first scene where two of the characters meet, and the younger person finds the master who will teach them something interesting. [Laughs.] Because I met you and Anna [Wong] when you guys were playing at City Hall, and then you just said, “What do you want?” And I said, “Oh, I want to show you my music and see if you want to play on it.” And you said, “Come to my house!” I went to your house, and we talked, and then we started working together. And then you let me come over every week until we did our studio recording. 

Weishan: Talk about the recording studio. It was very special for me. You know, I recorded at George Winston’s studio, and it’s so totally different. Your studio, I didn’t know anybody — and your music was not too familiar to me, actually. I had to study. I didn’t know what to do at the beginning. But when your music started in the headphones, I just automatically followed, and something came out very natural. When I came out, the engineer guys, and another two boys—

Michelle: My bandmates.

Weishan: I saw from their faces that they were very excited, and they liked my music. It made me very happy! So I think I did a good job. [Laughs.] 

Michelle: Yeah, you definitely did. Because I remember after you left, everybody looked at each other and said, “… Wow.” I think somebody said it felt like they had just gotten a really big hug. It felt like something magical happened. But yeah, you said you didn’t quite figure out how to play until the big studio day.

Weishan: Yeah, yeah.

Michelle: How did it feel before when we were starting to collaborate? This is a really different type of music.

Weishan: Very different. I play with jazz musicians, so we work a lot — we have the melody first, and then we practice. Your music is so totally different to me.

Michelle: You kept calling it the “电脑,” the computer — like, “The computer is making this sound!” 

Weishan: Yeah, I never use the computer sound. 

Michelle: By “computer,” we mean synthesizer, because I do electronic production. But it is all the computer. Well, we’re talking about my work, but I want everyone to hear a little bit about who you are, too. How did you get here? How did you get to the point where I found your society of guzheng music?

Weishan: I came to the States 42 years ago. I was working with the Central Song and Dance Ensemble of China as a soloist. I played for Jimmy Carter, and a lot of other countries’ presidents. But I really wanted to see the world. That time, 1982, China was open to the world, and I really wanted to see the world. So that’s when my cousin invited me here. When I came to the States, I thought I wouldn’t have a guzheng career anymore — but a lot of people really liked Chinese guzheng. I didn’t know that. So I started to teach. Before, I thought that I’d maybe become a housekeeper or something. No more music. But the people just came to me, and I was very excited to teach them. Eventually, I had a lot of students. In one month, I can teach 76 students. 

I’ve been invited to Europe — England, Germany, Switzerland. That’s why I came to the States. I really wanted to see the world. It really helped me to make my music more colorful, more different. 

Michelle: Can I ask you a question about something you said before? You said that even though you had your career in music in China you thought, because you wanted to go and see the world so much, you might give it up. Was that a difficult or an easy decision to make? At that point in your life, what were you excited about and what did you want?

Weishan: A little difficult, because I had a good position over there. When you go somewhere where you don’t know anybody and you have to do some something else — it’s difficult to make the decision. Some days I didn’t want to go, some some days I wanted to go. But finally I said, “I want to go. I want to see the world. That’s my final decision.”

Michelle: How old were you then?

Weishan: About 36.

Michelle: OK, so a little bit older than I am now. 

Weishan: [Laughs.] 

Michelle: We just found out that we have the same birthday, and we are also the same Chinese zodiac animal — we’re both dogs.

Weishan: It’s amazing. I didn’t know that you’re 48 years younger than me…

Michelle: Look, I could still decide in six years to move to a different continent, just like you. I’m not thinking about it yet, but it’s inspiring to know that you were able to make such a big change then. 

Weishan: How did you start your music? 

Michelle: Well, when I was a kid, my parents signed me up for piano lessons, like a lot of people. That was just something I felt like I had to do for a long time. And they always said, “You have to keep doing it until high school, then you can decide for yourself if you want to stop.” I didn’t like it for a long time, but once I got to high school, I also joined a choir. I heard choral music for the first time, and I remember I felt it in my body. Something was so amazing about hearing so many people’s voices together. So from then on, I sang in choirs a lot, and that was the first time I started singing — though never by myself for a long time, because I think I was too shy and my voice was very quiet and I didn’t know how to sing that well then. But then my choir teacher in high school gave me a homework assignment like, “Write just eight bars of music.” I took it completely too seriously, and I wrote a whole piece. I asked her, “Can I actually write a longer piece and have us sing it?” And it turned out to be for choir, piano, violin, and cello — which is funny because that’s almost the same instruments that I’m still writing for. That’s the core of my band right now. 

But yeah, I think I started as a composer first, and then it wasn’t until the last four years that I started doing more synthesizer production. I just really felt like I wanted to mix together all of these different things that I enjoy.

Weishan: How do you get ideas for different pieces?

Michelle: A lot of it is super intuitive. Often — I feel like this is how I found you — I’ll have things I’m really curious about, but I won’t know anything about them. Like with Chinese music and guzheng music — I’m Chinese-American, I was born here and my parents are from China, but I didn’t get a lot of exposure to traditional Chinese music when I was a kid. But I always liked listening to it, and I feel like it’s one of those things that I’m reaching towards understanding more, the language and the culture and the music. Same goes for other things that I’m trying to understand in my music — I’m trying to learn jazz piano more, because it’s something that I intuitively feel so interested in. Then wanting to figure out a way to put it together into my music makes me try and build my skills and learn more about those things and make them play together. Because to feel like these different parts of me that are interesting can come together in a song, it makes it feel like I make more sense as a person, or the world makes more sense, because I can fit all these things together that are so different.

Weishan: That’s very interesting. Before I met you, to tell the truth, I didn’t like computer music. 

Michelle: [Laughs.] You just didn’t like any?

Weishan: Yeah. Because I’ve played for different people, and I think music is the world language. In, I think, 1986, I went to England and played for people. After I played, one old lady just held my hand, with tears, and said, “I don’t know your instrument. I don’t know your music either. But your music touched my heart.” It was very touching. When I play with the different symphonies and the jazz musicians, we don’t know each other, but our music comes together. So I always play with live musicians. I never play with the computer.

Michelle: I don’t want to either as much. I want to be playing more of your music.

Weishan: Through the music, we understand each other. We can work together. Your voice is very natural, very sweet. So the background music from the computer, it doesn’t bother me. It’s very interesting.

Michelle: Yeah. When you say “language,” it actually reminds me of my favorite moment of what we worked on together, the song “Autumn Passing.” I had no idea what we were going to do that day. I remember we rehearsed a bunch of times, but neither of us quite felt like we knew what was going to happen when we went to the studio, and I think you were a little bit worried. I knew you were going to do fine — you did amazing. And the most amazing part we didn’t really plan for was at the very end, there’s two sections where it’s really just us playing together. 

Weishan: Yeah, like a dialogue. I felt that way too.

Michelle: And that was your suggestion when we were writing it together. You were like, “It should be like you’re saying something and then I’m talking back to you.”

Weishan: That was my idea?

Michelle: Yeah!

Weishan: I forgot. [Laughs.]

Michelle: [Laughs.] Yeah, it was your idea. I’m not going to take credit for it. I think that was the moment that everyone at the end of the studio session said, “You have to keep that one. You can’t do any redos of it. You’re never going to get that moment again.”

Weishan: I’m so happy to work with you.

Michelle: Yeah. Do you think we’ll work together more?

Weishan: Yeah, I will!

Michelle: I’m excited. I have more questions for you… Wait, tell us about the guzheng. Because most people probably reading this—

Weishan: The history goes back 2,500 years. At the beginning, it was made of bamboo. People cut the bamboo halfway, put the silk string on the top, five notes only. You know, the pentatonic scale — not like a piano. Over the years, more strings were added. Until the Tang dynasty, the guzheng was developed in Japan, [where it was] called the koto, and Vietnam. A lot of different countries. Right now, the guzheng has 21 strings, but it’s still tuned to the pentatonic scale. But in some modern music, they change to a different tune. Now, the strings are made of metal wrapped with nylon.

Michelle: But you said when you started playing it—

Weishan: When I started to play, the strings were still made of silk. But I didn’t really like it. When I went to the music school, my teacher just chose me — “Do you want to learn with me, the guzheng?” I said, “Yes,” but I didn’t really know what it was.

Michelle: [Laughs.] Wow. And here we are.

Weishan: Yeah. I was 12 years old when I started going to music school. 

Michelle: How do you feel now, teaching that instrument here in the US?

Weishan: A lot of the students really understand me. I think that music is a listening art, it’s a feeling art. So you have to have real feeling put the into the music, and then you can explain yourself. I want my students to not only play certain pieces to get a grade, I want them to compose by themselves. Also, I teach my students: how do you show your melody? How do you shape the melody? How do you use the different strings, how do you touch the strings to make the melody come alive? That’s the difficult part to teach.

Michelle: What’s it like for you to write your own music? Do you feel like you just understood a lot of these things naturally, or did you have to learn over time?

Weishan: When I went to the Bronze Gorge on the Yellow River, I worked with the workers. We used our hands to move the rocks. At that time—

Michelle: You’re talking about your first composition.

Weishan: Yeah, “The Magnificent Bronze Gorge.” I was chosen for [the Central Song and Dance Ensemble of China] because of that piece. Later, George Winston brought me back to the Gorge again to see the place, but it’s not there anymore. The water is very shallow; no more deep gorge. But when I worked there with the workers, I learned a local melody from them. So I composed it that way. Then I went to the competition in 1974. Then later on, I worked with George Winston. We had a tour, and we did the movie soundtrack for Thousand Pieces of Gold. He asked me, “You play so good over there, how about you compose your one solo?” So I did that one on the airplane.

Michelle: So are most of your compositions because there’s just a specific situation, or somebody’s asked you to?

Weishan: Yeah, mostly somebody’s asked me. He brought me to Inner Mongolia, and I saw the grassland — so beautiful. I was on a horse, and then I composed “Galloping Horses on the Grassland.”

Michelle: This makes a lot of sense. I feel like every time you’ve told me a story about when you wrote music… It’s so the opposite of what happens to me, and I wish I could write music more like you. For me, it’s often that I have a feeling — sometimes bad, sometimes good — but a lot of the music I’ve written in the past is just trying to work through some emotion. It’s very inside, very internal. Usually I’ll write a song right away, but then when I’m finishing the arrangement or writing the lyrics or working on it with somebody — that’s why the album took me three years, because I go very slowly. It’s a really internal process, and it’s a lot of me reacting to what’s inside of me instead of outside. 

Weishan: That’s very natural. That’s very important. Because everything from inside yourself, that’s your true feeling. Your true feelings are the most important. That’s why your music really touched me — I like your very natural voice. 

Michelle: But the thing I like about your music is the stories you’re telling me. It’s really the opposite. You have fluency in so many skills on the instrument, and because you’re so comfortable in the instrument and you also can feel all of those things so much, you can improvise in a beautiful space and it’s like you’re channeling what’s happening around you into something else instantly. It’s so amazing that you can do that. That’s what happened even for our recording session — I feel like you weren’t exactly sure what was going to happen, and then in the right environment, magic happened and it came out, and it was so lucky.

Weishan: Even though you’re a little younger, I really respect you, the way you’re doing music. Because I know musicians don’t earn too much money. How do you support your life? 

Michelle: I have a day job. Now that I’ve worked on this album, I felt like I took it seriously enough where it felt like something that I could do again and again and again. Maybe the way I did it was not very sustainable — it was a lot of hard work all at once, and it overlapped with when I was doing a full-time job. Usually I’m a software developer working at renewable energy companies; I also am really interested in that, and I think it’s meaningful work. But it’s been really hard to balance doing that work, and then to also have music. I wish I still had more time to work with more people, write more things, and take voice lessons and piano lessons. There’s infinite things to get better at, and I wish I had more time for it. That I have been able to have this other way of supporting my art has made it a lot easier to do whatever I want, but it comes at the cost of time. So I think at this point in my life right now, I’m wondering what that will look like for me in the future. 

Weishan: I hope you can continue doing the music!

Michelle: Oh, thank you! 

Weishan: I think if more artists come up, it’s good for the world. Music brings me to different people, and different people come to me because of music. Music is a world language, and that’s so important. I hope more people make art, any art, to bring people together. [When we were] in the studio, I didn’t know anyone else, but we worked together. When I go out of the country and I don’t know anybody out there, I’m scared at first, but people treat me like a family member. Even in Switzerland, after concerts, people say, “Come to my house, stay in my house!” I never have to think about that. Music really can bring people together. That’s why I want to keep doing my music and I want to play more, and for my traditional way to develop together [with other musicians]. Right now, people have a different rhythm, different style. To break the wall between two different cultures, that’s my goal. 

Michelle: You’re definitely helping me with it.

Weishan: I hope you can help me too. Because you use computer music!

Michelle: [Laughs.] I’m trying to do the opposite thing — I’m trying to reach back and touch something that’s older and more based in a tradition, and back to my own roots. So I need your help doing the same thing on the other side. 

Weishan: We can help each other. No problem. 

Michelle: Great. I’m ready.