S. Raekwon is a singer-songwriter based in New York, by-way-of Buffalo. His latest record, Steven, is out now on Father/Daughter.
Tasha is a singer-songwriter from Chicago; S. Raekwon is a singer-songwriter based in New York, by-way-of Buffalo. S. Raekwon just released his latest record, Steven, earlier this month on Father/Daughter, and Tasha is currently performing in the new Broadway show based on Sufjan Stevens’s Illinoise. To celebrate, the two friends (and former tourmates) met up in NYC to catch up about it all.
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music
Tasha: So when did you record this?
S. Raekwon: Last summer, July 2023.
Tasha: You went down to southern Illinois.
S. Raekwon: Yeah, a week in southern Illinois. It was recorded in seven days.
Tasha: And when did you write it all?
S. Raekwon: I wrote it over the course of a year, sort of 2023, late 2022. But some of the songs actually date back to 2019, 2018. So the writing period was long, but the recording was really fast, which was intentional. The first record, I recorded that over a really long period of time, kind of patchwork. So this was was totally different. I think often the next thing you do is a reaction from the latest you just did, so I was like, I want to record this really, really quickly, make something really fast, capture something really raw and organic, as opposed to worrying about perfection.
S. Tasha: Yeah. In the idea of redefining what success feels like, do you feel like you’re tapping into that with this project? Has your relationship to your work changed since writing this and preparing for this to come out? Because I feel like with a new album or a new project, there’s this process of releasing expectations and trying to ground yourself in the art and the creativity of it. Has that been possible for you?
S. Raekwon: Yeah, it’s really funny, because whenever I’m making the music and doing the art, the expectations don’t come into play at all. I actually almost react against it, like, I don’t care what anybody thinks, as long as I’m happy with this thing that I’ve made. But then the minute I package it up and we announce it, I become really concerned with what people [will think]. It’s like, No, I do want people to hear it. I do want it to be received well, and I do want people to find the record and enjoy it and write about it and think about it! So that’s tough. I don’t think I’ve cracked the code. I think I need to do a better job of relinquishing expectations to a certain extent, or balancing expectations with just enjoying the ride and not being too concerned with the end product. How about you? How have you balanced these kind of opposing forces?
Tasha: It’s a constant negotiation, really. Last year, I took my time recording and figuring out how I wanted to release my next project, whatever it might be, because I just really wanted to focus on the songs and recording them in a way that felt meaningful to me. I tried really hard to be patient. And then as soon as it was done, I was not that patient anymore. I was like, OK, no, I want the benefits now. I want to share it and I want this to exist outside of me. And now that we’re preparing to release it, I do feel that same kind of bubbling nervousness of, What will happen? Honestly, I think I’ve let go of a lot of the caring-what-other-people-think. Which feels relieving. I love this work enough and I love what I’ve made and I feel proud of it, and I think at this point, it feels like enough. I don’t know about in six months. [Laughs.] But it does right now, and I think I care less what people think and care more that it has the life that I feel like it deserves.
S. Raekwon: Oh, woah.
Tasha: You spend so much time working on something and the songs have entire worlds of meaning to you, and I think it’s disappointing if I feel like I’ve released something and it doesn’t exist in as expansive a way as I imagined it might. But then also, there’s just so much trust. I feel like in this kind of game, you have to trust yourself and you have to trust your work and your collaborators. You cannot rely on this industry to make you feel fulfilled. Because I don’t think it will.
S. Raekwon: Yeah. It’s hard not to attach the value of your work to how it’s received. It’s really easy to think if it doesn’t go the way you wanted it, to be like, That’s because it’s not that great. Or if it goes better than you wanted it, to be like, Oh, it’s amazing! It’s hard to stay grounded in your sense of belief in the project and not let anything else infiltrate that sense of belief once it’s out. I think it’s really easy to do that prior to it being out.
Tasha: Yeah.
S. Raekwon: What’s your favorite part in the process? I feel like there’s the making of the record and the writing of it. And then there’s: it’s made but you’re preparing to release it, which is a whole separate, distinct category. And then there’s the release of it.
Tasha: That’s a great question. I’m gonna ask you too. OK, my first favorite — this is actually the real favorite, and then I have a runner up — I don’t write a lot, so when I do write a song, my favorite part is when I’m playing guitar and I feel an idea that feels exciting. And sometimes songs come out in one go, but sometimes they take days, or weeks even, to find the melody and the words and the way that it comes together. But that moment when it does come together and I scribble out all the words and I sing it, and I record a voice memo and then sing it again and again and realize I’ve made a song — that is my favorite part. It’s so magical and amazing to me, and I every time I’m like, I can’t believe I made a song! And it’s so good! It never is as good, I think, as it is in that first moment.
S. Raekwon: Yeah, yeah.
Tasha: Because then you listen to it a million more times and you’re like, Oh, whatever, it’s fine. So that’s my favorite part. And then my next favorite, my runner up, is: I really love the aesthetic creative process of releasing something, like figuring out the artwork and the LP layout and merch and the visual world that gets to accompany it. I really actually enjoy that process a lot too. How about you?
S. Raekwon: Pretty similar, actually. My favorite part is the making of the music — which is a lot of parts.
Tasha: That is a lot of parts. You’ve gotta be more specific. [Laughs.]
S. Raekwon: I think I’m with you in that initial idea generation, and feeling like you’ve captured something out of thin air and you’re like, Woah, what is that? That’s the thing you kind of live for. Because I’m someone who, I usually don’t write a song at a time. I usually start an idea and work on it, and then I’ll get — not bored of it, but maybe I’ll run up against something and then I’ll start another idea. Sometimes I’ll start an idea and write the whole song in one go, but that’s pretty rare. For me, it’s usually more of an iterative process. So usually I have a lot of ideas simultaneously floating for a long time, because I think I’m always chasing that initial spark. Once I’m, like, 50% done with a song, it’s like, Now it’s more like work to finish this. And that work is fun still, and I love that work. But the fun thing is then chasing the new thing, chasing another spark. When I know I’m going to record a record is when I have enough of those 60%, 70% sparks. Then I’m like, Alright, no more. Now I have to dig into these 10 or 12 or 15 that I have.
Tasha: Yeah.
S. Raekwon: So I love that part. Then my second favorite part is when you finish the record and it’s mastered and it’s done, and you haven’t announced it and it’s just like your secret. Because in that moment, it could be anything. You know about it, maybe your label knows about it, maybe your close collaborators know about it, and your partner or parents or whatever. Only a couple people know about it and it’s just yours and it could be anything. Then the minute that you announce it, the scope of what it could be is narrowed in a little bit.
So yeah, those are my two favorite parts. I think it’s funny that neither of us said the releasing of it, because that’s the only thing people see.
Tasha: They just see the Instagram posts, the promotion, the streams.
S. Raekwon: That’s maybe my least favorite part of it. My favorite part of it is all the other stuff, the creation of it.
Tasha: And playing. You just played a show the other night?
S. Raekwon: Yeah.
Tasha: How was that?
S. Raekwon: It was great. It was solo.
Tasha: You played new stuff?
S. Raekwon: Yeah, I played, like, 70% new stuff, which is a little bit like — you never know when you’re playing something for the first time, how it’s gonna [go]. Even if you practice it in your room.
Tasha: Oh, it’s always different playing it for the first time. You’re like, Oh, my god, I don’t know how to play this song at all. [Laughs.]
S. Raekwon: Like, Why did I just do that with my hands? Or you forget a word. But they seemed to really connect with people, which was great. It was a great show. I really, really love playing live. I need to do it more. The tough thing is — you know, you say that, but then I’ve played shows where it’s, like, to five people or whatever, and then you’re like, Do I really love playing live? [Laughs.] That’s not as fun. So it’s a balancing act.
Tasha: Yeah. Does your relationship to your songs change as you play them more, once they get in front of audiences?
S. Raekwon: Yeah, absolutely. Especially on the last record, some of the songs had a hundred tracks on them. It was a real production effort, and it was kind of more patchwork, like I was saying; a lot less live instrumentation. So when I went to play that record live, and I went on tour with you — which was a really foundational experience, that was my first tour — it was like trying to reinterpret the songs for a live performance. I found in that sense, the songs took on a whole new life. And that allowed me to think, Oh, the live show doesn’t have to be a reflection, necessarily, of the record. It can be its own thing. You could reinterpret the songs and they could breathe new life into them. That also inspired me for this record, because this record is a lot more live and organic. A lot of it was recorded just me and Mario [Malachi, drummer] sitting across from each other playing the song all the way through, and that’s it. Maybe added a couple overdubs.
Tasha: That’s cool. It’s funny you should mention that tour, because it was it was such a specific little bubble of time, I feel like.
S. Raekwon: Post-COVID.
Tasha: Yeah, but there was also a COVID surge happening at the time. That was my first tour in a long time, so I was headlining places I never headlined. And then it was your first tour, so I feel like there was so much new — I felt like we were just a bunch of kids, like 10 of us on the road together. It was really sweet.
S. Raekwon: Yeah. I don’t know that anything will ever feel like that again. That felt like such a specific experience, but in a really beautiful way.
Tasha: Yeah. Do you feel like there are other things you learned or tapped into, aside from reinterpreting your song structures and things like that?
S. Raekwon: Yeah. I think the biggest thing I learned from that tour was the power of letting the performance speak for itself and not worrying so much about being perfect, and not worrying so much about being cool.
Tasha: [Laughs.] Yeah.
S. Raekwon: I think when I play live, I can get really into it and my face does all this weird shit… But letting that speak for itself, I think that inspired me in general to worry about emotion and rawness and performance over capturing something perfect or pretty or cool. What did you learn on that tour?
Tasha: It’s interesting to think back on, because I feel like a lot of things changed. I mean, I know that a lot of things changed for me after that tour and I haven’t done a headlining tour since that one. And honestly, with my last record, I feel like there wasn’t a super long life to it — just the way that I promoted it or the way that it existed in the world. Which was fine. I’m so grateful for what has come since then. I don’t have that band anymore, so it’s kind of like this nostalgic relic, that tour. It will never happen again, like you said, in that particular way. But also, I think any tour, the beauty of it is that it cannot be repeated, and there are memories sewn into these venues and these cities that we were in, because of the group of people that we were with and because of the context. Like that TV Eye show we played in Ridgewood—
S. Raekwon: Oh, yeah! Dude — so, there’s actually a song on my new record called “The Camel,” which was where we played in Richmond. It was a real particular show.
Tasha: That was the show where there were, like, 10 people there! [Laughs.]
S. Raekwon: Yeah, there was like 10 people there. I started writing it the moment I got off that first tour. That tour really impacted me in a big way.
Tasha: Wow. I love that so much.
S. Raekwon: When you were talking about your last record and the shelf life, and the difference between what you thought it might be versus what it was — looking back on that record, do you feel any different now than you did when you made it? And how do you think you can take any experiences or learnings from that and apply it to how you approach your next release?
Tasha: It’s interesting because I think a lot of it is simply getting older and becoming a better artist, just getting better at what I do. I feel like my songwriting is stronger, and the more I’m in this music world and the more that I learn, I feel like my ear gets stronger when it comes to arranging and producing. I worked with my friend Gregory Uhlmann in LA on this record, and he’s incredible. Our collaboration was really intuitive and beautiful and he’s really a lot of the reason the songs sound the way that they do. But I think also, this record is really about — do you know about Saturn returns in astrology?
S. Raekwon: No, I actually don’t—
Tasha: [Laughs.] We don’t have to make this an astrology conversation, but there’s this thing called your “Saturn return,” which is every 28 to 30 years. The planet Saturn in your chart returns to the place that it was 28 years ago, so for everyone, the first time that happens is when you’re between 28 and 30, and it’s supposed to be this really significant shift where everything you thought about who you were gets kind of blown apart. It’s like a reflective period, it’s a transformation period. It’s all of these things. I think my record was written and developed in the midst of this Saturn return moment in my life. And I think the last record was — I can feel my own uncertainty. I can feel my searching, both creatively and internally, and I don’t think I’d quite landed on it, looking back. And on this record, I feel like I’ve landed on it more, what kind of creative voice I want to have, what kind of person I am. But you need to make all the work that you’ve made to get to the point where you are. As much as it’s embarrassing, like, “It’s not as good as I am now!” That’s the point. The point is that you grow. It’s weird to be an artist and all that growth has to be public. Everyone has to witness it.
S. Raekwon: That’s funny. Sometimes I look back on songs I’ve released and I’m like, I don’t know if I would do that now. But I remember at the time being like, I wouldn’t change anything about this.
Tasha: Exactly.
S. Raekwon: So that always makes me think, What am I going to think about this record that I just made in 10 years? I always go into records with rules, or like, what do I want to get out of it? And with this record in particular, I was like: what I want to get out of this is to be able to look back in 10 or 20 years and be like, I remember exactly where I was and who I was with when I made this? I don’t need to look back on it and be like, That was the best thing I ever made, or that was the defining — I want to be able to look back and say, “That’s where I was when I made it, and this is who I was with, and this is what I was thinking about.” It’s like a snapshot in time.
But to go back to your point around your work being public, and reflecting on your prior work — I think there’s a lot of artists who their first record is my favorite, and maybe they would be like, “Well, that’s not my best one.” But that’s my favorite one. Do you think you’ll always be like, the thing I’m working on is the best thing?
Tasha: I think about that a lot, actually, because I feel that my current work is my best work, and it’s my favorite. I do think a lot about artists whose early records I love and whose latest records I haven’t listened to as much. But so many artists’ sound changes over the years, and I embrace that. I don’t think we have to love every record from an artist just because we love some of them, but we can embrace the change. I’ve been thinking about that a lot doing this Broadway show—
S. Raekwon: Which we’ve gotta talk about.
Tasha: [Laughs.] We’re playing songs from the Sufjan Stevens record that came out 20 years ago [Illinois], and it’s really interesting to think about. Sufjan has had a very hands-off relationship to this show. I mean, the director, Justin Peck — they’re friends, they’re collaborators, and same with the music arranger, Timo Andres. But it’s not [Sufjan’s] baby in the same way that it is for Justin. I can’t even imagine what it would be like to hear your own songs 20 years later, played by new people in this new context. I’ve been thinking about how after a certain amount of time, it doesn’t really matter what you think about your record anymore, because it exists and it’s other people’s. And if other people have that relationship to it, that’s out of your hands. People come to this show who are insane Sufjan fans, and just to hear the songs live is meaningful to them. It feels like a very tender thing to hold this music that means so much to people. But also knowing that we’re creating something new with it — like, this isn’t Sufjan’s 2005 album. This is something new. And what that means… I’ve been thinking about it a lot.
S. Raekwon: Yeah. Just the idea of this record that he made 20 years ago, and now it’s taken on this whole new life so many years later… He couldn’t have ever thought that it would get to this place.
Tasha: Yeah.
S. Raekwon: Which I think says something about the experience of releasing music. I spoke earlier about that point before you release it and you’re like, It could be anything — maybe I should hold that feeling longer. Maybe I should hold that feeling through tomorrow when the record’s released, and through a year from now, through five years from now.
Tasha: Yes.
S. Raekwon: I shouldn’t just be like, Oh, it’s out, so now it is what it is, just because of whatever happened on the first day or the first week or the first month. It can still be whatever, you know? And that’s a really powerful feeling.
Tasha: Exactly. Circling back to our understanding of success as an artist and a musician — being a part of this show is the first time in my life, so far, that my only job is to play music. I have usually three or four jobs at a time, and now this is what I’m supporting myself with. And that’s amazing, but I also never would have guessed that it would be this. This project came into my life by complete surprise, and now it is my whole life in this amazing, beautiful, incredible way. I couldn’t have planned it this way. But it also happened because I stuck with my own work. I kept writing songs and I kept releasing them with small little labels with no money, and going on these little tours and playing to 10 people in Richmond, Virginia. You can’t know, and I think in the moment it can be hard to feel like it’s worth it.
S. Raekwon: Like you’re on the right path.
Tasha: Yeah. But I think it always is. Success can look like so many things. And maybe this is a little bit corny to say, but I do think the point is to just keep making your art. I mean, I don’t subscribe to, “You just work hard enough and do enough shitty long tours, you’ll have a big break.” I think that’s fake. But I think that there’s something to be said for trusting your work and your community enough to get you to wherever it is you’re supposed to be, even if you don’t really know what that is yet.
S. Raekwon: Yeah, 100%. You don’t know when the spotlight that’s revolving around is ever gonna shine on what you’re doing, but you know for sure it’s not going to shine on it if you stop. But if you keep going and going and going… Someone asked me recently, “Is it worth it to go through the ups and downs, the playing shows to five people or whatever?” And my answer was: it’s not even an equation. It’s not even something that I do a cost-benefit analysis of, because I have to do it. I make music because I’ll always do it. I’ll put out records forever, even if no one ever hears them, because that’s what drives me. If you ask a lot of musicians, “is it worth it?” — if anyone did a cost-benefit analysis of being an indie musician, you’d be like, “Probably not, no.”
Tasha: [Laughs.] Yeah, I’m not making any money! Spending money, actually.
S. Raekwon: You do it because you love it. I feel that way about Father/Daughter, my label — they just love the music and really believe in the record and they’re not like, “Oh, I think Steven‘s gonna make me a lot of money.” They just believe in this thing. Which is really beautiful.
Tasha: I’m so excited that your record is coming out. I listened to it yesterday and it’s beautiful.
S. Raekwon: Thank you. That means so much. I’m so excited for it to to come out, and be the world’s and not mine.
