Masma Dream World and Zola Jesus Are on the Same Frequency

Devi Mambouka is the New York- and Wisconsin-based artist and spiritual healer behind Masma Dream World; Nika Danilova is the Wisconsin-based artist who performs as Zola Jesus and NIKA. Tomorrow, Masma Dream World’s record PLEASE COME TO ME will be out via Nabil Ayers’s label Valley of Search, and tonight, Devi and Nika will be playing the release show together at Public Records in Brooklyn. Ahead of it all, the two got on the phone to catch up. 
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music

Devi Mambouka: Before we start, can I do a quick chant? 

Nika Danilova: Yes, please. I was going to ask you to set the tone. 

Devi: [Chants.] So, the first chant is just honoring all the teachers and the lineages, and the ultimate guru to guide me and you in the conversation. If I share any information from them, I want to make sure that they’re honored here. And then also, an invocation to the goddess Kali. So, that’s what I just said.

Nika: Love it. I think it really sets the tone for our conversation, because that’s something I wanted to ask you about. But first I’ll say, how are you doing?

Devi: How you doin’?! [Laughs.]

Nika: [Laughs.] Like we don’t talk every day. On the record: it’s harder to have these sorts of interviews with people that you know very well, because you don’t even know where to start. But I’m good. Currently overcoming jet lag after playing some concerts in Europe, and preparing to leave for New York to play our show together. And also to work on my next record in the studio. So yeah, lots going on over here. But you’re about to release a record and that is very exciting — a beautiful record, which you brought over to my house. Wait, we should explain the insanity of our union.

Devi: I feel like people should know how we know each other.

Nika: I’ve told this story to so many people, because it’s one of my favorite things to have happened in the past year. So, I was playing a show with my NIKA side project, opening for my friend Yellow Swans. I saw that they had this person Masma Dream World on the bill, and I was like, Who is this? I checked out your music, and I was shook. I’m very picky — especially these days, I’m very unfortunately cynical. But your music resonated with me.It really just really hit me. So then I think we connected on Instagram, right? 

Devi: Yeah. 

Nika: I was like, “Hi, I love your music, can’t wait to meet you!” And then you were like, “Yeah! By the way, I think I live in your town.” I live in a town in northern Wisconsin of, like, 10,000 people. No one knows what it is. It’s barely on the map. And so when you said that, I was like, Does she think I mean Madison maybe? Which is 2.5 hours away. What town is she thinking of? Because it can’t be Merrill. And then you respond, “Oh, I live in Merrill.” And I was like, “No! What?” 

Devi: [Laughs.] 

Nika: Shook shook shook shook shook. I was absolutely shocked. Then we met in New York City — and meanwhile, we have been living mere miles away from each other for a year probably, and had no idea. And once I saw you perform, I was so blown away. I felt so immediately connected to you and to your spirit, and from that point on, we have been connected. And you are my only friend in Merrill. I am so happy that this proximity has connected us, because getting to know you and spending time with you on the ground has been one of the best things to happen to me in the past year. You are just such a special human being and an amazing artist. So, very surreal. Very funny. We see each other all the time. Except not lately, because you’ve been in New York. 

Devi: For me, what had happened was: when I was on tour with Jordan [Reyes], with ONO, we were in the Midwest and I was like, “Yeah, actually, I’m actually I’m moving to Wisconsin.” And he was like, “Oh, Nika lives up there.” I was like, “OK, OK.” Maybe it’s a New Yorker thing — like when you when you see established artists and you don’t want to bother them, because it could be so cringe. So I was like, If it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be, but I don’t want to be cringe [by reaching out]. [Laughs.]

Nika: It’s so not. It’s kismet. It’s pure destiny. Because I don’t know a single person — and this is my hometown — I don’t know anybody here. And then, lo and behold, you of all people.

Devi: Yeah, crazy. And it was really intimidating to move there, because I’m like, What do I wear? I don’t want to be singled out. It’s just such a culture shock for me.

Nika: I mean, for me too. Like 90% of my closet is gathering dust. I’ll go to our local grocery store, and I’m just like, Well, I guess I’ll wear basically my pajamas, because anything else is going to be too extreme… It’s a real introvert’s paradise out here.

Devi: It’s gorgeous out there. And it’s weird because when people ask me, do I like living there? I feel like so connected to something deeper, being in those north woods. And I feel that in your music, too. When I saw NIKA, it was something spiritual for me to watch. And of course, Zola Jesus is amazing. The lighting and the outfits and your voice — something about your voice and your presence, to me evokes Shakti. Shakti in Hinduism, it’s the divine feminine. It’s just like raw, untamed power. I almost feel like you’re a portal to something. It’s beyond ego. And when I saw NIKA — I go to a lot of shows, and it’s like you’re waiting for that.

Nika: That’s how I felt with you! I was like, Yes, she’s not afraid. You’re tapped in. You’re locked in, you’re open. I think when we played that show together and we saw that in each other, it was finally like the two Spidermans pointing at each other. Like, “You too!” We’re on the same frequency. The thing that is also so compelling to me, and what I admire so much about your work, is the spiritual nature of what you do. And it’s not a surface aesthetic thing. I say that as someone that knows you — you are a fully embodied, spiritual person. And I’m curious how long that’s been a part of your music and your life.

Devi: I think that that’s why I relate to you a lot, because seeing where you were born, it reminds me also of where I was born, even though that was Gabon. In Gabon, at least for me specifically, it’s about the trees. It’s about connection with the earth there, and the spirits of the forest and the wildlife. I feel like those formative years of exploring sound and music was really connected to my relationship with nature. Because when you stare at nature long enough, the veil starts to blur. You know what I’m saying? If you look at a sunset for a while, all of a sudden, your mind gets cleared, because you are in awe of the nature that you’re observing, and then that creates a little crack where things are coming in. So growing up, that’s how it was. And of course, Gabon is a very spiritual country. Spirituality and cultural gatherings, they all intertwine. Art and spirituality are the same. And on my mom’s side with Hinduism, we sing all the time to the gods and all that stuff. So it was just natural. Coming here, I was like, Y’all don’t do that here? [Laughs.]

Nika: [Laughs.] I know.

Devi: And I mean, obviously, we’re a French colony, so there’s some nuances to that with the church. But yeah, that’s the connection. And I think that’s why we have this [connection]. We understand what it is to just stare into nature and trees. For me, observing the north woods, it’s like this coldness and despair, but also rich and deep and transcendent. That’s what I would feel like, because in Gabon you go into the forest and you could die. It’s scary to go into the forest.

Nika: I feel the same. And as you know, I live in the woods. I was just walking out there the other day, because it had freshly snowed and it was so beautiful. And number one, it’s so easy to go out there and get lost because of the snow blindness — you’re looking around and everything looks the same. But then also, there’s this feeling of, Holy shit, it’s just me out here. But at the same time, it’s not just me. There’s a whole ecosystem, especially in the summer when everything is alive and growing. There’s a neutrality to the woods, because it doesn’t really care that you’re there or not, but also there is this feeling of everything is alive and working in accordance and in this kind of symbiotic relationship with each other — whether it’s the fungus and the trees and the stream running through that’s feeding the all of the little animals — you see everything working together in this really harmonious way, and then you’re just there, plopped in the middle. It ends up making me feel like there is something inhospitable about it, because I’m almost like an uninvited guest. It’s like, “You’re not supposed to be here.” We’ve removed ourselves from that relationship to the extent where now, when you are in nature, it does feel like, “What are you doing here?” But then there’s also this pull of, This is where I belong. This is where I’m from. Maybe not these woods, exactly, but this earth. And it’s deeply spiritual because it makes you understand the context of life and the context of what it means to exist in the world. It’s just so powerful. So, yeah, I totally get that. It’s such an important part of my life and my spiritual life and my work. 

Also this area — especially this land where I live — a couple of miles away, there’s train tracks and it is so quiet that you can hear the train from the distance. You can hear the highway from the distance, you can hear all these sounds. And so there’s always these drones that are happening, and it’s so musical. It made me realize, moving back here, that’s what my first musical experience really was on my own, hearing the music of just the world. And it’s very quiet, but it makes you appreciate the ambient sounds of nature and life. You can hear, when everything is so still, there’s still sound. It’s really powerful and inspiring.

Devi: I love that. I feel like there’s a hum all the time. If you listen closely, there’s a hum that’s just around, and it exists outside of produced sound. In Hinduism, they call it the om. It’s the unstruck sound, it’s the sound of existence. It just always is. 

Nika: I didn’t know that, actually, that the om is the unstruck sound. That is so cool because that’s definitely it — there’s always a hum. There’s always something to hear, even if it’s the rustling of leaves or the birds. But there’s also just the hum of the earth. 

So, Kali is a major part of your work.

Devi: Yeah. 

Nika: And it has been for how long?

Devi: I feel like Ma has always been around me. I’ve always had an altar with Ma — the moment I moved out of my mom’s house, I took pictures of my Mother Kali, and other deities, and I’ve always had an altar. And I feel like she’s always been around me, kind of guiding me in the background. I read this book that my mom had in her library on Mother Kali, and I remember reading it in my early 20s, and it really helped me deal with PTSD and dealing with nightlife. You know, because nightlife in New York is really — [Laughs.]

Nika: Next level.

Devi: Really, really intense. And I felt like when I was reading that book, which is called [Aghora: At the Left Hand of God] — it’s the recounting of Dr. [Robert] Svoboda, and it talks about his guru, and how his guru talks about Mother Kali and who she is. Growing up, we never really got an explanation of Mother Kali, because my Bengali family were Brahmins, they were priests, and they kind of rejected my mom and her siblings because they were mixed. And then my grandfather passed away early. So a lot of the stuff, I had to find out on my own. So I started a long time ago, but as an adult, to be aware of it. It’s just my private practice. 

It was only when I had this huge crisis in 2020 where — basically, since 2012, I’ve been healing my relationship with my mother. I remember I was like, “I’m having a hard time having a relationship with people.” And my mentor was like, “Well, you need to look into your first relationship, which is the one with your mom. If you can heal that, you can heal everything.” So in that journey of doing that — not only healing generational trauma, but taking courses — I was like, “But I’m still sad.” It just was so much. I didn’t want to live anymore. I was like, “I ain’t taking no more courses. You say you’re here, Ma — where is it? I’ve been doing this long enough.” And the moment I decided that I was going to take my life, I was on my way to the Hudson River, and I blacked out and woke up on my couch. Now, I don’t know how I got there, and I’m just crying like, “Whatever it is, please come to me.” And in that moment, that’s where I had this vision of this light, and it just felt like the mother goddess hugging me. Since then, that sadness is completely gone. But in hindsight, I don’t know. I found out that in Hinduism, because we believe in reincarnation, if you commit suicide, you come right back. Just like The Twilight Zone. [Laughs.] 

Nika: It’s a trap. Unfortunately, people think it’s the easy way out. I’ve never been suicidal, but I’ve lost friends to suicide, and have helped loved ones through attempted suicide. People think it’s this easy shortcut to end the suffering, but you’ll come right back. And it’s really about conquering that sadness. Because life is so rich, and the world is so rich. It’s usually just a void. There’s a void of something that needs to be addressed in life. And once you address that, I do feel like the sadness goes away. But you do have to ask — “please come to me.” That’s the opening. You need to let that light in in order to transform you. It’s easy to not do that and to think there’s only one way out.

Devi: It’s like the last resort, right? Because you’re in so much pain. 

Nika: Yeah, absolutely. 

Devi: I don’t feel that pain anymore, but I know what it is. I’ve been there.

Nika: I’m so glad you don’t feel that now, by the way.

Devi: Yeah. But I feel like the spirits, they snitched on me. Because the moment I was recording the latest album, all I could say was, “Ma.” All I could say was to tell this story. I try to just be an open channel, because I ain’t trying to have my ego out here. Music that has ego in it don’t sound good. [Laughs.] That’s what I think.

Nika: That’s another thing that I really respect about you — not only in your music, but in just your personhood, you have so much faith in spirit and you’re always checking your ego. I think it’s so easy in music, especially these days, to try to reverse engineer what you want. You go, “OK, this is what I want. I gotta work backwards, and this is how I get it.” And I’ve fallen into this trap. But you are truly opening yourself up, and you are letting it in, and you are having faith and trust in the universe to guide not only your life, but your artistic and creative process. And that’s real fucking art. It’s so rare. Because it’s really hard to have that faith in the unknown, especially these days.

Devi: Yeah. I mean, after that experience, I couldn’t doubt it anymore. It became real for me. 

Nika: When you tell me about how you wrote this album, you come in to the studio with material, but nothing really written, right?

Devi: Yeah, just field recordings.

Nika: Yeah. So you put so much faith and trust in the moment of being in the studio, where I would be like, “I have to come with the songs all ready and I need to know that they’re perfect and that no one else touched the process.” It’s like I put myself in a straight jacket, whereas you’re the opposite. You’re like, “OK, I have these field recordings, but then what I do with them and how I work off of them is being responded to in the moment.” It’s almost like more of a live performance. I find that to be really, really inspiring.

Devi: But your music feels so spiritual though. Do you do any practices? 

Nika: I mean, I have my own spiritual practice for sure. For me, it was discovering Buddhism. That was kind of a lifesaver for me, and meditation, which allowed me an escape from my mind. Because I can be a very emotionally heady person. Embracing meditative state, and also the tenets of Buddhism — which is about non-attachment and nondualism — has allowed me to really let go of that stronghold that I have on the mind. And my music is very spiritual. It’s spiritual against all odds, really. It’s the essence of the music that can’t help but make its way out, and it’s always been like that. Even before I had a spiritual practice, I had a philosophical practice. Instead of Buddha, I had Schopenhauer and Nietzsche and Emil Cioran and all of these philosophers that dealt with very emotional aspects of existence. So the spirit has always been something that has been a quandary to me. It’s been something I’ve fought against even before I understood it. Because I grew up with a kind of masculine perspective, and it’s only until I discovered Buddhism that I was able to embrace my yin and the kind of divine feminine, the Saraswati. So that’s something that I’ve been really transformed by. But of course my music is so emotional. It’s always been there. 

Devi: Yeah. Maybe it’s just because I see her everywhere, but when I hear you, I’m like, “Here’s Ma.” [Laughs.] 

Nika: That means a lot that.

Devi: I feel like you can move a mountain with your voice. 

Nika: I’m so grateful to have you in my life, and to feel so inspired by your process and by your your essence. I don’t say that lightly. Your new record is so powerful, it’s so purposeful, and the world absolutely needs it right now. Like, more than ever. And so it is such an honor to be your friend and to be able to witness your music in real time. It’s awesome.

Devi: I don’t think I would have done it without you.