J.R.C.G and Mikey Coltun (Mdou Moctar) Are Making It Work

Mikey Coltun is a producer, composer and engineer, and the bassist for Mdou Moctar; Justin R. Cruz Gallego is a Tacoma-based artist who performs as J.R.C.G. J.R.C.G.’s latest record, Grim Iconic… (Sadistic Mantra), just came out last week on Sub Pop, so to celebrate the two friends (and former tourmates) got on Zoom to catch up. 
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music

Mikey Coltun: Hey, Justin. It’s been a while.

Justin R. Cruz Gallego: I know, so good to hear you.

Mikey: Likewise. You’re back home?

Justin: Yeah, I’m back in Tacoma. Are you home, too?

Mikey: Yeah. We just finally got back last night. 

Justin: That’s awesome. I saw y’all had some unplugged shows.

Mikey: Yeah. We’d been talking about doing this for a while, and finally — because we weren’t able to get our visas for EU — we did Glastonbury and a show in London, and then flew back and did a couple shows acoustic-ish. Or, I’m trying to think of it as electric-ish.

Justin: Yeah, I saw some video and it looked kind of electric-ish. It looked awesome.

Mikey: It was cool. It felt very special. It’s definitely something we’re talking about doing in the future.

Justin: I think it’s such a cool way of stripping things down, especially how you guys are currently playing with Souleymane [Ibrahim] having a stripped down drum set and everything, it creates this way different vibe.

Mikey: Have you done a stripped down J.R.C.G. set before?

Justin: I have not. It’s funny because that conversation has been popping up more and more on how to maybe present it in a more stripped down way, or just a more intimate way. I haven’t even begun to approach how to tackle that. I feel like with the live band being so big right now, my goal is to present that in different ways, and having different lineups and different instrumentations with that. But specifically to the degree that y’all did it just feels extra daunting to me right now. But I think it would be cool.

Mikey: Totally. I had this thought — it’s something that Mdou and I were talking about for a while, of how do we continue to do something that’s not [typically] what you would expect from an acoustic session, or not necessarily a complete Tinariwen rip off thing. It’s been a lot of brainstorming, and we’ve never had the opportunity to do it, so then when it presented itself, it was just like, “Eh, we’ll make this work.” Which is kind of the way this band operates: just figure it out. Which is, I think, similar to the world that you grew up in — a very DIY punk ethos of just do it yourself, just figure it out. Like when you guys played at 9:30 [Club in D.C.] with us and set up and soundchecked in 30 minutes, it was amazing. You all are on the same page. It was very inspiring to see that.

Justin: I’m glad. It doesn’t feel amazing in the moment, but you’re right, there is a comfortableness to that where you’re just like, “OK, I’ve been here before.” There’s a bit of that foundation that’s already there. But yeah, it’s funny in that way, having to accept that you can’t plan for certain things and you have to just roll with it. With playing music, for me, the sooner I was able to adopt that mindset, the sooner cool things started happening.

Mikey: I completely agree. I think that this band particular for me, the biggest learning thing was just to let go, and everything kind of works out.

Justin: Yeah, I feel that so much. Because with me, a lot of times I’ll have people that I haven’t played with before join the live band, and I have to give room for people to have their own personal take on the music, and let it have enough slack to be presented in a new light with each different person. It’s an involvement. And I love that about it. That’s one of the most special things about the live approach to it. 

Mikey: Definitely. Seeing you all play — you all felt very comfortable, and that was really cool to see that every night. Even if it took a different direction, you were all very supportive of each other on stage, and I think that is the most inspiring thing to see.

Justin: That’s awesome. I’m so glad how that came across. I’ve experienced live projects with, say, a band leader or the person who writes everything — I’ve seen that go south. I’ve been excited to see a project like that, and then when you see it and you can tell, Oh, man, these people don’t really seem like they’re here. They seem like maybe they’re having a bad time. You just try to piece together the live experience that you as a listener also would want to see. When you see a band gelling like that and giving each other the space to experiment and be free, it’s intoxicating for everyone in the room.

I definitely saw that with you all. It was interesting seeing the variations that you would all take, especially towards the ends of the sets every night, and specifically the rhythm section. I loved how you all would interact and sort of jam in the end of the set, and it would always feel so free. You never really could tell how long you all were going to go, but also how intense it would get. Because I feel like there were some nights — one in particular I remember was Buffalo, where it just kept going. You guys kept starting it back up again, and every time it was up another level. It was so awesome. But yeah, I feel like playing with you all really motivated that and inspired that in us.

Mikey: Well, I appreciate you saying that. It feels like Ahmoudou [Madassane], Souleyman, and I are a unit. We move as as one, and Mdou could really just do whatever and we’re there to follow him. We all have this trust with each other, which took a long time to build. It wasn’t there at the beginning. But I’ve been with Mdou for over eight years now, and this specific lineup has been together for about five years. I think it’s hard to see in the moment how much we’ve built. And then when people who haven’t seen us in a while come back, they’re just like, “Woah, what just happened?” I forget that we do get tighter and it is a band. Watching you all — and I know that the project is relatively new and the members in the band rotate — but it felt like you all have been playing for a while. I’m curious: how do you rehearse when you get new people involved in the group? Do you send them the tunes and say, “Learn these parts?”

Justin: I started doing this thing where I made videos for every element to give people a sort of a foundation to reference. I’ll meet up with them one-on-one and we’ll go over stuff, but usually I just have these videos. It’s just like tutorials where I’m talking into the camera. I think having that be something that they can maybe tackle on their own is something I’ve noticed is really nice too, because I don’t know about you, but for me, trying to learn something very specific in the moment with the person who wrote it watching over you — that’s not the best experience. I get maybe a little too nervous, unless it was someone that I really trusted and we were just jamming.

So I give them this sort of set foundation, and then from there we can jam. I try to really be specific about, “Hey, I’m not really precious about certain aspects of this, but there are certain things that are really precious,” and outline the differences between that. I think the biggest element is just trying to instill a comfortable environment, a comfortable launching point. I don’t feel like I would like to collaborate in that way, where I have a stickler looking over me being like, “That’s not right, too slow.” And I’ve had to do that, in a way, but I also try to balance it out with making it a safe space, for lack of a better term.

Mikey: Yeah, I think that’s exactly what I’m talking about. It is your music, but it feels like a band. I wanted to ask you about design and how you got into that. I think having an aesthetic and having certain design choices on all fronts, whether that be record covers, videos, shirts, etc., is super important. I’m curious how you got to that.

Justin: Well, we’ve talked about coming up in punk and DIY communities. I feel like I just grew up having to do that stuff — not necessarily even at first being completely interested in it, but just feeling like it was a necessity and no one else was doing it. I think it just snowballed from there, from having to make flyers to pass around at school and layouts of tapes and CD-Rs. Figuring out a cool, added depth to your art that wasn’t sonic felt exciting over time.

What about you? I love the aesthetic of the new tape label, and I was curious about that as well. But you coming up in that similar world, how did you encounter that more visual side?

Mikey: There was the punk stuff, and that had a certain aesthetic. Whether it was trying to or not, there was kind of a general uniform. But then it was finding bands like The Locust and that whole Three One G scene where it was like, “Oh, this is a concept and there is a visual language within this music.” It feels very married together with the music, and those bands were kind of the first that I was like, “Oh, shit, this is a thing that unifies the band, that makes it a cohesive thing from record to record.” So bands like that, and then Raymond Pettibon doing record covers. Just seeing that general aesthetic was super cool, and I feel like it helped me with buying records early on. Just like, “Oh, this cover’s cool,” and then digging through their discography and maybe seeing a repetition — which is something that I love in music and in visual art as well.

And so with Mdou — I think there was a lot going on when I first started working with Mdou in 2017. When I came in, there was this idea of, “This is not a world music band.” And it was clear the first time I went to Niger that, Oh, this is very similar to punk music and this is very DIY. And the visual aspect needed to reflect that. Ilana: The Creator was the first record that I did with Mdou, and we were listening to a lot of Black Sabbath and ZZ Top at that time, and kind of wanted something in that world. Robert Beatty came up as somebody who we wanted to work with, and he just nailed it. Then continuing on, we knew we wanted the bird as the icon of the band. 

Justin: I love that, and I love Robert Beatty. I mean, he’s, for lack of a better term, goated. [Laughs.]

Mikey: Yes, big time. 

Justin: Even though that style has reemerged in such popularity, you can undeniably tell which is his. He has such a unique print. And I love it for Mdou. It’s such a great piece of the puzzle.

Mikey: Thank you. I appreciate that. What is your favorite record cover of all time? Or one that was very influential.

Justin: The first thing that comes to mind — and it’s interesting because it’s a photo, which I usually don’t really lean towards — but the Eno and Fripp record, No Pussyfooting.

Mikey: Oh, yeah.

Justin: With the mirrors. It’s funny, you mentioned buying records based on that — that’s something I still force myself to do. When I do go buy records, I try to buy at least one that is only based off of the record art. I’ve found out about such awesome stuff in the past because of that. 

Mikey: Yeah. That’s the best. I find myself very inspired by old jazz covers. The free jazz world and that graphic design aspect of it — there is this simplicity to these covers, and the type being very important qualities of these records.

Justin: Yeah, I’m obsessed with those covers. And it’s insane to think about how all those labels had substantial art departments that were cranking out that stuff, how much more weight was behind that side of things. It’s wild to think about the importance that those departments had at that time, because they all individually have such unique looks and feels and are still, at least for people like us, undeniably like cool and relevant. I mean, I still reference those when I’m putting together vision boards.

Mikey: So the music videos that just came out, are those all directed and shot by yourself?

Justin: No. The first one [“Dogear”], I did with my friend Sam [Klickner], who plays in a band called Teton. We did that together in Portland. Then the other ones were shot by my friend, Mitch Wells, who plays in the band Thou. That’s been a whole other side of things. Music videos are awesome in a lot of ways, but they’re such an interesting thing tackling it. The record covers and merchandise and all that stuff feels natural to me, but music videos feel so hard in a way that I can’t really pinpoint. But I’m just like, God, this is such a a cool art form, but it’s still very foreign to me.

Mikey: I completely agree. I love your videos, I think that they tie into the whole package. I still love the mystery of bands and artists when you don’t have that visual language for a song; implying your own take on the songs is really important. So I don’t generally love music videos, and I do find it really hard to come up with these concepts for videos. I am a big fan of a story video that doesn’t really have anything to do with the music video, but somehow ties in. This is the first time we’ve had music videos in a campaign — like purposefully shot as a music video, as opposed to stuff thrown together — and it was definitely a new experience for me.

Justin: Yeah, it can be sort of weird, especially if you’re performing for the camera. Maybe less so if it’s in a band setting. But for me, the only thing I’ve really done performance-wise is just singing into the camera, and that feels insane. [Laughs.] But it’s what we were talking about earlier, about finding the people that you can actually just trust. Working with Sam and Mitch, I’ve been able to just be like, OK, I gotta just trust these people. I gotta just let go and accept that it’s going to be different and uncomfortable.

Mikey: Yeah, definitely. Having the right team and then the letting them do their thing is definitely something that I’ve learned is the way to do it.

Justin: Yeah. I mean, at the same time, not with these [people], but I have had that happen where it’s just undeniably going south and it was up to me to be like, “OK, this is not working. We need to shift gears.” And then usually it’s salvageable. But you have to have a feel for when something isn’t working and when your trust isn’t enough.

Mikey: Yeah, for sure. That’s super important. I’ve been spoiled to work with [mixer/engineer] Seth Manchester on these records. Within the music department, I know that any sort of recording mistake that I make, he’s either going to help me understand that we gotta lean into it, or he knows how to fix it.

Justin: I’m glad you brought that up, because that was exactly what I was going to go into. So much of that trust for me working with Seth was the same thing. I really want to hear more about your recording process, because I think it is strangely similar to mine. I would love to dig into that a little bit more, and how you eventually get Seth involved.

Mikey: So, Seth has been involved since 2017. After we recorded Ilana, I was digging around for people to mix, and I’m big fan of everything that Seth does, from The Body records to Battles. I didn’t know much about him other than those records, and within the first 20 minutes, it was like, Oh, yeah, I have the right person. Right energy. 

So that was the first thing that we did. Then with Afrique Victime, we had recorded it in a bunch of different locations. Mdou doesn’t like studios, and I get it, and I try to do stuff to make him feel comfortable. So while we have a day off on tour, if we’re sitting around and my friend has a room with some mics, we’ll just set up some stuff. And later on that tour, maybe redo his vocals in a hotel room or something. That was the Afrique Victime process, and I thought I was going to mix that record, but I realized that I really can’t do what Seth does. So I went back to Seth’s for Afrique Victime, had a great time, and he did an amazing job. I feel like with each record, Seth knows how to bring back the energy and the beauty of the music. I really don’t understand how he does.

Then with this new record, Funeral for Justice, it was just about recording it in an empty house. It was the four of us and I brought an assistant with me named Nelson, and we were just living together, cooking together. Kind of a similar situation to when we’re all in Niger and Agadez together, where we’re all sleeping on the floor, we’re all playing music, we’re drinking tea, we’re talking. Capturing that intimacy with such an intense record was a really important thing that I wanted to do for Funeral for Justice. So the recording technique was just about getting the best drum sound and then DI-ing all the guitars so I can spend a lot of time re-amping that stuff later. Then we did a couple tracks in my apartment, too, without drums. And then I had Souleyman lay some drums over that later, which was the first time he ever did that and completely killed it. 

Justin: That’s so awesome. 

Mikey: I was working with Seth on another project and I came in — I think it was the day that you left, or he was just doing some mix tweaks to your record. I remember hearing it and being completely blown away. And on that same session, we were tracking a drummer on top of some music that we recorded, and he brought up the fact that you completely killed it with that stuff, like he’d never heard anyone else do that.

Justin: Oh, that’s so cool. That’s high praise coming from Seth, for sure.

Mikey: What was your process of recording this record?

Justin: I was turned on to working with Seth through The Body. I had recorded my last record all at home and mixed it myself, and felt like I was able to get this nice lo-fi, at-home-recording charm and lock it in as an aesthetic. But moving into this new record, I really wanted something more. And similar to you, [I was] realizing the limits that I had. And so The Body — they were the ones who were constantly like, “You gotta record with Seth. Go to Seth. Call Seth now. Email Seth.” So I did. 

Seth and I did a lot of pre-production stuff together, just planning. I’d been writing the record for a long time, and I kept checking in with him, and it kind of evolved into this co-producer relationship. I recorded most of the record at home, then I flew out to Rhode Island by myself. I had never met Seth in person, and I was there for a week and it was it was amazing. I had such a great experience and we did a lot of rerecording there. I did a lot of drums, so that’s what he was probably referencing. I was performing over what I had already recorded, and that can kind of be tricky. But I usually do that at home anyway, so it felt sort of like, “Oh, yeah, you want me just to play the whole thing over on top of what we already have?” That’s just something I would have done anyway at home, so I didn’t even really have to think twice about it, luckily. I didn’t even think of that as a skill at all, you know?

Mikey: It’s definitely a skill that not a lot of people have. It’s super cool to hear because, again, it feels like a band. I know it’s you, but it feels like a band. So you didn’t know you were rerecording the drums ahead of time to rehearse that stuff?

Justin: Seth had me bring out a snare drum. He told me, “Just bring your snare drum. If we do need to rerecord any drums, at least we’ll have that,” and we wouldn’t have to worry about pairing it with something that he had. So I brought that, but I thought that was maybe more for anticipation of doing any new additions percussion-wise. I wasn’t really thinking we’d have to redo stuff. But it worked out. Working with Seth was amazing. I had such a great experience, and I felt like him and I had this goal of marrying what I was able to capture at home with what he’s able to provide. It was pretty daunting — like, OK, I’m going to go literally to the other side of the country by myself and bring this entire record out there and just see how this goes and spend all this money. But I’m so grateful now, looking back.

Mikey: It’s an awesome record. Congratulations on everything.

Justin: Thanks, man. Congrats to you too. It’s so inspiring getting to know you through that process, and just performing with you all and continuing to evolve alongside that has been an absolute pleasure.

Mikey: Oh, man. It was the best touring with you all. I can’t wait to do it again.

Justin: I can’t wait to do it again! I can’t wait to see what else we get into also…

Mikey: We gotta get on a Zoom after this.

Justin: Yeah, we gotta scheme.