Nick Rattigan is an LA-based artist who performs solo as Current Joys, and as the singer and drummer of Surf Curse. The latest Current Joys record, LOVE + POP, is out now.
Nick Rattigan is an LA-based artist who performs solo as Current Joys, and as the singer and drummer of Surf Curse; Jackson Katz is an also-LA-based artist who performs as Brutus VIII, as well as in Slow Hollows and in the Current Joys live band. The new Current Joys record, LOVE + POP, just came out earlier this month, so to celebrate, the two friends got on Zoom to catch up.
— Annie Fell, Editor-in-chief, Talkhouse Music
Nick Rattigan: Alright, we’re hot now. So if you want to make it still look like we’re friends, now’s your time.
Jackson Katz: Well, I’m just so nervous to talk to you, because I’ve never met you before and I think you’re intimidating. The way you leave it all up on stage makes me so nervous.
Nick: Oh, wow, you too, man. If we didn’t know each other, I bet we would think we were both very different people from our stage presences.
Jackson: Absolutely.
Nick: Everyone goes, “Jackson is so different on stage.”
Jackson: I know. I was just telling somebody, my thing has a double wink: There’s a wink in that I’m not really mean, but there’s another wink in that I secretly am.
Nick: Yeah, totally. Is mine a double wink or a single wink? It’s just like, “Oh, that’s what this guy is like behind closed doors.”
Jackson: It’s a single wink. Mine, I have to lie to be honest. You can just be outright honest. Which is what I admire about you.
Nick: Oh, that’s so nice. This interview is going really well so far.
Jackson: Yeah. Well, what I was going to ask you — this is such an annoying question, but I think it’s an important question — why? Why do you do it? Like actually why?
Nick: Why do I make music?
Jackson: Yeah, or art or whatever.
Nick: I mean, no one’s ever asked me that before, actually, in that way.
Jackson: It’s the most important question. Why do you do it?
Nick: I don’t even — it’s like a compulsion, maybe. I’ve just always done it since I was five years old, literally finding my dad’s guitar in his closet and hitting the strings. Then when I was in high school, I started making songs on my laptop, but I had a Windows laptop and I didn’t have any programs. I would use my webcam to record the music and I would edit it together on Windows Movie Maker. I would do that process, like, 20 times — I would record the drums, and then I would put it on Windows Movie Maker, add a guitar, and then print the movie because you can only have two bars. So I’d have all these videos of myself on my desktop, and I didn’t even think about why I was doing it. It was just like, This is what I freakin’ do. You can’t explain it.
Jackson: As you start to love records and music and stuff, you’re just like, Well, I want to do it. You have no concept of a studio or how they did it. I did the same thing, basically — not that way, but a similar thing of just figuring it out. And I think I was just like, I just want to hear myself. It’s a little delusional and narcissistic.
Nick: I know what you’re saying. Sometimes you hear the song that you want to make because it doesn’t exist and you’re like, Oh, I want to do it like that.
Jackson: It’s funny hearing you talk about that, because the early Current Joys records — I mean, for the record, we’re good friends. I play drums in Current Joys and have for years. But I was a fan of you before I met you. So I knew you and your music more of the era of the home recordings, and I think it’s funny to hear how you kind of started doing this in that way as a kid, because it sounds like it didn’t really change that much.
Nick: No. That’s what I’m saying: I’ve been doing this since I was 14. And I don’t know why. It’s literally a compulsion I have inside of me. I don’t want to paint paintings, I don’t want to write prose. I just want to make music all the time. Sometimes you don’t, and that’s hard; you have to shift. But when the faucet’s on, you gotta cook.
Jackson: You gotta cook. Neil Young always talks about that.
Nick: So, LOVE + POP comes out in eight hours. Are you excited for the world to hear “Rock n Roll Dreams?” Are you nervous?
Jackson: No, I’m not nervous at all. I’m stoked. Releasing music always is like—
Nick: What a rush.
Jackson: It’s a rush. And then, you know, it’s like a yearbook photo. In a couple of years, I’ll look back and I’ll either cringe or I’ll be like—
Nick: No, it looks good!
Jackson: Yeah, I’m glad for that.
Nick: My driver’s license picture — everybody who sees it’s like, “Wow, you look good in this.”
Jackson: Really? I’ve never seen it.
Nick: Oh, I look good. Not in my passport photo, though. My follow up question was: why didn’t you want to rap for me?
Jackson: Well, first of all, you got me to kind of rap.
Nick: Yeah, slightly. The first few iterations that you sent me, I was like, “Jackson, it needs a flow to it.” And then you were like, “I’m not going to rap.” And I was like, “Jackson, I’m not making you rap. Just have fun with it.” Because originally we were trying to pitch that song to Yachty, remember? We got greedy — once Yachty got on the record, we were like, “Let’s send him three more songs.”
Jackson: Yeah, like he’ll just do all of them.
Nick: At that time, [“Rock n Roll Dreams”] was probably the most hip hop song on the record, I would say.
Jackson: Which is so funny, because I love hip hop, but I don’t consider myself as down the wormhole of it as you are.
Nick: I am such a head right now.
Jackson: It’s funny that my track on the record is kind of the trappiest.
Nick: That was before I’d done “bb put on deftones.”
Jackson: Oh, right. Yeah, that’s probably the most hip hop. But I think “Rock n Roll Dreams” is the most hype.
Nick: Yeah, well, at Knockdown Center it went hype. I feel like it fell a little flat at Baby’s.
Jackson: [Laughs.] Yeah.
Nick: We shouldn’t admit that we talk about our shows like football games. and we review footage and stuff.
Jackson: Well, let me ask you about the live setup. I might know the answer because I’m a part of it, but—
Nick: What we should really talk about — and I don’t know if you want to talk about it — is the whole saga of me firing you.
Jackson: I was going to ask if you want to talk about that.
Nick: We should. It’s a good story. So what happened was — I mean, it’s been a long few years. We’ve been collaborating for a while now. You’re on Voyager, and you’re pretty involved in that record, because the touring band at that time is what created Voyager. I was writing those songs so that everyone would have fun playing them.
Jackson: I remember that period of you being like — tell me if I’m wrong, but I think you were starting to feel like a tyrant. Which you weren’t, but I could tell you were feeling that way.
Nick: I used to feel like more of a tyrant in the early days, and I was a little bit.
Jackson: It was the solo project that you’d only done a handful of band things with, so I think we had to all learn how to work with each other in a way.
Nick: Yeah, but then eventually we did and opened up, and I think Voyager was like a loosening of the grip a little bit, letting you guys in to do your thing.
Jackson: Yeah, absolutely.
Nick: But then COVID happened. I kind of got Grateful Dead-pilled and I really wanted to reform a band, make it a little bit different. That was my thinking at the time.
Jackson: It made sense then.
Nick: Yeah. So I fired you, and it was pretty difficult. I really struggled with that decision… You want to soak this up right now?
Jackson: [Laughs.] No, we’ve done this so many times.
Nick: I know, I know. I like doing it. It’s my dinner trick with you, it’s how I get you to smile a little bit. [Laughs.]
Jackson: No, but it was brutal for me, too. It was tough. It was funny, too, because I could tell you were… I don’t know if “impulsive” is the right word, but it felt like you didn’t really want to do it.
Nick: Part of me didn’t! I was scared.
Jackson: Of course. But I could tell you were unsure about it.
Nick: I was so unsure about it for a while. Then a year goes by and I record the country album with nobody — it was supposed to be this big band that I was putting together and we were going to jam it out, but I ended up doing most of the instruments and then Henry [Dillon] did all the bass. But then I get pilled by modern music… It wasn’t only that, but the firing worked for both of us to be pushed to limits that made us uncomfortable and change who we were and change our relationship to each other, and to come back cosmically at the time that we did to become collaborators in this different way.
Jackson: Absolutely.
Nick: And that’s a very important lesson, that you make tough decisions in life and sometimes they’re not always right, or don’t feel right, but the universe is rewarding anyways.
Jackson: Absolutely. And in hindsight, if I could go back — yeah, I wouldn’t want that, because it hurt. But at the same time, this record wouldn’t sound like how it sounds.
Nick: I don’t think I would have been pushed to the point of being tired of rock music.
Jackson: Yeah. And what I wanted to talk about, too: We had a conversation in Berlin that I love where. You were kind of like, “Look, I’m getting a little burnt out on rock music.” At that point, you hadn’t been quite Lil Peep pilled, but you were Gecs pilled. and you were–.
Nick: Drain.
Jackson: Yeah, you were Drain-ed.
Nick: I was kind of unhappy, a little bit.
Jackson: Yeah. And I think what I said was, “Don’t forget that you’re an artist. You’ve been grinding and touring, but you’re allowed to pivot.” I think all of the artists we all know and love are interesting people that pivot, and maybe even alienate some of their fans sometimes.
Nick: OK, here’s the thing: All of my heroes — Jonathan Richman, Lou Reed, Scott Walker — they all have this heavy pivot point in their lives. And I thought I’d been doing it for a long time. I thought I’d been doing it slowly with each [release]. A Different Age was such a far reaching record for me. I remember being really nervous to put it out, and when I put it out, people would tweet, “This isn’t Current Joys.” Like, all the stuff they’re saying now. Now it’s a little more intense, but I’m like, Oh, my god, is this like when Jonathan Richman discovered calypso music?
Jackson: [Laughs.] Right. Lil Peep is your calypso.
Nick: Peep is my calypso. Well, I’m even going down a more of a hip hop rabbit hole right now. I’m working with this kid, feardorian, and he’s this 17 year old kid who lives in Atlanta. He’s in high school right now. He DMed me on Instagram because I followed him — I listened to one of his songs with POLO PERKS, who I really like, and he messaged me, “Hey, you’re the GOAT. We should collaborate.” I was like, “Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to remix one of my songs?” Voyager is the only record I have stems for, and I was like, “Maybe you could do ‘Rebecca.’” And he was like, “I was literally listening to ‘Rebecca’ when you said that.” I send him the “Rebecca” remix, I put a verse on it, and he’s sending it to POLO PERKS to do a verse on it. And since then, I got home last night and I’ve done two more songs with beats that he’s made.
Jackson: That’s amazing.
Nick: And they just keep getting better. It’s very much pushing my comfort zone. It’s scary, but it’s so fun.
Jackson: This is why I support your hip hop journey so hard. Again, I love hip hop, but I’m not quite up to date on all of the contemporary shit. But because it’s clear we both make music from a super emotional place, and in this day and age — tell me if you agree — punk and alternative music has failed us emotionally.
Nick: Trap and hip hop became punk, you know?
Jackson: Exactly. That’s my point. There’s so much more emotion in some of this stuff.
Nick: It is punk. It’s the alternative sound of now. And especially with the genre blending stuff. Dorian’s such an inspirational young kid, man. He is smart and he’s really good at making beats. But I was talking to him and I was like, “Hey man, I don’t like this verse. I’m kind of nervous about doing it. I don’t know if I should rap, if I should sing…” He’s like, “Do whatever the hell you want. You can rap. You can sing. It’s going to be great. Just have fun.”
Jackson: That’s a great producer.
Nick: It’s like Signs when Mel Gibson’s like, “Swing away.”
Jackson: Yeah. Swing away, baby. You can always edit later, just fucking go for it, especially if it feels good. That’s why everybody that’s responded to your music, to my music, has responded thus far, because we’re following our gut and it’s feeling good.
Nick: Yeah, for sure.
Jackson: So why would you do anything else? I had this moment years ago where I saw ASAP Rocky play to, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of people. I was on a hill looking down at this crowd watching his amazing show, and it was punk as fuck. Kids were going fucking nuts. And it was so much more emotional to me than any punk show I’ve ever seen, at least since I was a kid. And hip hop has succeeded on so many levels, but especially a pop level that alternative guitar music has not.
Nick: I think you’re right. Something very similar happened to me when we were playing Coachella in 2017. I saw Radiohead the first weekend or something and I was like, I don’t want to watch Radiohead again, I’m going to go check out Travis Scott or something. He came out and there was just this screeching guitar and mannequins of him riding a falcon and flames are shooting up, and there’s a Rage Against the Machine style mosh pit. Crazy, crazy stuff. I was like, Woah, this is this is next level.
Jackson: And there’s no rules. That’s what I love about it.
Nick: There’s literally no rules. It’s like fashion. People are like, “Wear whatever the fuck you want as long as it’s you.”
Jackson: People can smell the bullshit.
Nick: People can smell the bullshit. The people on TikTok that are really fishing now — you can smell that music bullshit. All people ever want in music is for something to feel authentic and real, and I’m not going to pretend to do something that doesn’t make me feel real to myself.
Jackson: If you’re bored, they’ll be bored.
Nick: And if you’re experimenting, maybe they’ll jump on the train. [Laughs.] I’m really excited for this record. I think the Yachty song is pretty big. I don’t know how people are going to react.
Jackson: We’ve about it so much, but it’s a fucking huge deal. That’s a cool, big thing.
Nick: That’s the first time I think that my Internet clout has gotten me anything really crazy. And I love that the record is like, features by YOUR ANGEL, Slow Hollows, Henry, Oddbody, Lil Yachty. It’s just like, How the hell did you get that? And it’s just because he’s a fan of Wild Heart.
Jackson: Yeah.
Nick: And the song’s a “Blondie” sample! That’s a crazy song.
Jackson: That’s so sick, to recycle your own material.
Nick: It was like me flexing my metaphorical gold watch that I put on. Because the song is called “Gatsby” — it’s about me making all this money and being alienated from myself, and I use my biggest song that made me all this money as a sample for it.
Jackson: Is there a bit of a “fuck you” in there? To me, that song sounds like an anticipated, “I’m going to take your favorite song and make it a trap song.” At least, that’s why I love it. I don’t know if that was your intention, but it has this thing to it where it’s like “Oh, yeah, I can’t do this? Watch this.”
Nick: See, that’s so funny because, that’s not how I looked at it at all.
Jackson: Yeah, that’s the difference between you and I: our combativeness in our art. I have this secret anger that you wouldn’t know talking to me.
Nick: Oh, come on. I can smell it on you. You’re so angry.
Jackson: Well, you know because you’re one of my dearest friends. But I don’t always lead with rage. But I do like punishment a little bit. I like to punish the audience. I guess I’m a noise musician in that way.
Nick: You like punishing yourself, too.
Jackson: Yeah, I do.
Nick: When you make music, you don’t eat anything. You only drink coffee in the morning, and then you don’t eat anything — you starve yourself to make music.
Jackson: Yeah, well, you have to repent for this delusion of ours. But I want to punish myself and punish the audience to show this very vulnerable, rageful side of myself, because that feels the most honest. And you what you do is not dissimilar, it’s just not rage-based.
Nick: It’s emotional.
Jackson: It’s emotional-based. It’s tragedy-based. Or romance-based, rather.
Nick: Yeah, in some ways. It depends on the song.
Jackson: Tell me about releasing “CIGARETTES.” That seems to be the one that’s the most polarizing.
Nick: Isn’t that so crazy?
Jackson: It’s the most return-to-form of the record.
Nick: We were like, “This is literally is just a Current Joys song,” that has that one twist at the end. Thank you, Ruben from Model/Actriz.
Jackson: Who produced the ending. Amazing. You know what I think it was that people freaked out? That video.
Nick: The video was so cool. That was my favorite video, I think.
Jackson: I love the video, but I think people are used to the Fassbinder era Nick. Or that’s what I think they want.
Nick: I mean, I’m stretching my own boundaries — it’s the first time I’m saying, “Making all this money, but I’m taking all this bullshit,” you know?
Jackson: You’re flexing more.
Nick: I’m flexing more, but I’m also experimenting with what I can say and what I can’t say. Because one thing I love about hip hop is that you can just say crazy shit. can talk about your phone and it doesn’t sound cheesy. When I first heard Gecs, I was like, They’re genius because they’re kind of taking this hip hop idea that you can really talk about anything. And they play it up a little bit, but also with rappers and modern music in general… I don’t know, I just feel like I’m exploring a zone where I can maybe take on a different persona or get more comfortable in that world.
Jackson: You can actually be honest about the time we’re living in. I feel like so much alternative music, we’re sort of pretending that it’s 20 years ago. You can’t talk about your phone or whatever.
Nick: Sucking on toes. That’s the one that I’m really scared — if people didn’t like “CIGARETTES,” they’re going to fucking destroy me with “deftones.” But you know what? My mom said that was her favorite song on the record.
Jackson: Really?
Nick: She said she thinks it can go platinum.
Jackson: Shout out, Gail. It could go platinum. OK, wait, I have one more question: What made you welcome everybody into this project?
Nick: Well, when I started producing these songs, I was like, Oh, all my friends are dope producers. Why don’t I bring them in this process? Also, this process of making things electronically, or however you want to describe it, lends itself so much better to the creative process of working with people. Because you really can be anywhere and sending people things back-and-forth and bouncing off ideas. So me sitting in my basement on the internet, I’m like, Oh, I’m going to hit up Henry and tell him to make me a song. It’s so fun to collaborate with people on this type of music. It brings in a whole different energy to a song.
